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 Spoils of WAR, matchmaking and weapon Tiers in stead of levels.

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Mortem6
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PostSubject: Spoils of WAR, matchmaking and weapon Tiers in stead of levels.   Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:21 am

Some of us already discussed this on raidcall earlier this week but nobody bothered to make a topic ...
First off: Spoils of WAR, a new weapon pack where you get level 30-ish weapons which have been tweaked to become even more powerful and then you give them to level five players.
Not that long ago Ubi said that they didn't want low level players have an advantage over veterans and that was why they increased the RP prices of low level guns. Now they give them insanely powerful weapons. Granted they buy a weapon for GC once, but after that there is no need for buying further guns so they basically ruin things for themselves.

Secondly: improved matchmaking, now the weapons you have and the score you had in previous games with the same fireteam matter. Do the WAR-guns count as level 30 guns or as level 5 guns? If the latter is true then they will quickly kill all beginning players which do not have such guns, keeping them from enjoying the game as a game of skill. Do the fireteam performances stay noted even if you disband the team and for instance form the same fireteam the next day? How will they keep track of that information since there are a lot of players and you can get all those players in several team combinations so you got a massive number of possible fireteams, does each of those possibilities get a certain rank? How long will that data be saved and used to change matchmaking?

Last but not least is the proposed tiered unlock system.
Now you don't have levels any more for your characters, but you have to buy a gun from each tier, independent of class. I started off with a standard issue gun, bought the Sentinel SR-1 SV, the PP-19 SP and then the M200-SV, which means that it took me 3 purchases to get to the top level sniper guns. In the new system you have to buy 7 guns in order to get there. This means that not only did the gun prices go up, you now also need to buy them all, which involves either extreme hours of gaming or immense amounts of real life currency in order to get to the level we currently are at. The guns we have now will not disappear so that's a good thing, but other than that I think this new system will completely destroy the game. Also the guns will then have a crit-rate based on your performance with all guns of that type (lmg/sr/smg/ar/sg/hg) and will be capped at level 7. I currently got 2 level 8 sniper rifles, so yeah, that would be a set-back for me ... On the one hand it's a good thing because you can tranfer your skill from one gun to an other, but on the other hand it takes away the tactical decision of buying new weapons or not because if you start anew, you had no real crit-chance to speak off. This meant that the gun had to be worth the crit-fallback before you bought it.

And I decided to add something in the end which is a bit more positive: The new unlockable add-ons.
Previously whenever you wanted to change the scope on a gun, the grip/bipod or the nozzle flash hider, the previous add-on you had there was destroyed and if you wanted to change back, you had to buy a new one. Now they are retained and you can interchange them without problems, which makes experimenting easier and suits professional gamers more. If I were to play a cloaked recon, I might use a silencer on my gun so gunshot detector doesn't give away my location. However if I play with oracle and go gun-and-running, that silencer adds way too much time and decreases the firepower so I might want to use just a standard flash-hider. The downside to this new system is that the prices for add-ons did go up quite a lot ... Ahh well, at least now they're worth it!

So, what are your thoughts on this all?

ADD: The links to the detailed info on these packs:
Spoils of War
Matchmaking, Tiers etc.

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PostSubject: Re: Spoils of WAR, matchmaking and weapon Tiers in stead of levels.   Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:06 pm

As I've discussed with you, I feel that giving the WAR guns to level 5s is a great big steaming pile of untreated donkey faeces. I feel that the WAR guns in general are pretty pointless, and I think that we're simply having too many weapon packs. They're coming out every fortnight, so the devs are going to run out of ideas and weapons before too long. I think the same about the AK guns. But I still want one.

I believe that the score used to determine matchmaking isn't the score you have in a match, but an invisible value based on a variety of things (in-game performance, weapon score (each gun will have different scores, so that people end up in matches with balanced equipment) and other factors), and when you join up in a fireteam then the game calculates your group score based on all your values.

Like I mentioned above, guns have their own scores, and the scores are based on the weapon tier (might even be based on individual variants, but who knows). There are going to be tiers One through Eight (levels 1 to the upcoming 35), and then a special tier for special edition weapons. How the scores for the SE weapons are going to be calculated, I have no idea. All I know is that it'll probably throw matchmaking off balance. Again.
I think I like the crits. I feel that it makes more sense for your character to have experience with a specific weapon type, instead of one specific type of gun, since few of the guns differ HUGELY in how they operate. Then again, crits don't really make a tremendous amount of sense.

I think unlocking guns tier by tier COULD work if guns weren't so expensive. As it is, a level 1 gun is 5000 RP. 15 RP per minute of gameplay, 20 minute matches on average, let's call it 300 RP per match. You would need to play approximately 16-17 matches, give or take a few to accommodate for shorter or longer matches, good days, bad days, and daily rewards.

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PostSubject: Re: Spoils of WAR, matchmaking and weapon Tiers in stead of levels.   Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:25 pm

So they lower the ex to raise in lvl, and now they compensate for that by taking away lvl. hmm

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Mortem6
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PostSubject: Re: Spoils of WAR, matchmaking and weapon Tiers in stead of levels.   Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:43 am

FreedomTaker wrote:
Then again, crits don't really make a tremendous amount of sense.
How would we have to see crits in real life? Usually a shot does certain damage, it hits certain organs/tissue etc. etc. It's not like the exact same shot in the exact same place, hitting the exact same organs and tissues would suddenly be way more devastating. Also the idea of regenerating health is bogus, good shooters actually allow you to bleed to death, you need medical treatment in order not to die after taking a shot. So yeah, quite a lot of things don't make sense Wink
PJ wrote:
So they lower the ex to raise in lvl, and now they compensate for that by taking away lvl. hmm
Indeed, sounds strange uh? The only reason I can think of that it is a sane move is for people who have played for some time to level quickly before the Tier system starts, giving them a chance to buy a high level gun before they need to buy every single gun in-between. However since this is Ubi and they are gold-digging freaks, I don't think that's what they intended since it will lower sales after the tiered system has been introduced.

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PostSubject: Re: Spoils of WAR, matchmaking and weapon Tiers in stead of levels.   Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:16 am

Bullet fragments maybe? everybullet is diffrent in a small way, and while you want to have as much of a bullet left when it hits (while hunting) sometimes weakness in bullets makes them fragment in diffrent and unexcpeted ways

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/black-powder/294353-what-fragmenting-bullets-you.html

problem is, i dont think an army (special forces whatever) would use low quality bullets.... there you see how cheap ubi is Laughing 
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PostSubject: Re: Spoils of WAR, matchmaking and weapon Tiers in stead of levels.   Sun Aug 11, 2013 3:04 pm

I've just realised how bad the tier system is. Previously I was only thinking about paying in RP, but I just remembered about how hugely P2W this will get since players can just buy their way to tier 8 with GC. And then you'll have new players running around with F2ks, and the matchmaking will be thrown completely off balance to try and accommodate for low player skill and high weapon skill. I realise Mortem brought this up before, but the impact of how bad this will be has only just hit me...

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PostSubject: Re: Spoils of WAR, matchmaking and weapon Tiers in stead of levels.   Sun Aug 11, 2013 5:31 pm

I'm afraid that indeed will be the case, Freedom. In fear of that happening I'm already looking into GRO-alternatives.
As for the quality of bullets, curious how a bullet can withstand the firing from a M200 sniper rifle barrel but shatters after that never the less.

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PostSubject: Re: Spoils of WAR, matchmaking and weapon Tiers in stead of levels.   Sun Aug 11, 2013 5:44 pm

was thinking how real life crits could (notice the COULD) occure.

O.o holy, i just looked up the m200. i want that to hunt mooses with.
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PostSubject: Re: Spoils of WAR, matchmaking and weapon Tiers in stead of levels.   Sun Aug 11, 2013 6:56 pm

I would use an M200 to hunt mooses too.

>.>
<.<
"Mooses."
Definitely not people >.>

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PostSubject: Re: Spoils of WAR, matchmaking and weapon Tiers in stead of levels.   Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:02 pm

Speaking of, moose season starts tomorrow.
and i am ofski for a week or so. will have limited internet.




So, after been playing this new tire system. what do you all think about it? i am quite annoyed with the new weapons. not used to them (to get shot from them i mean)
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PostSubject: Re: Spoils of WAR, matchmaking and weapon Tiers in stead of levels.   Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:37 am

Isn't Mooses the one who led the people of Egypt through the Red Sea? Wink The new SR "Nemesis" gets 100 damage more per crit HS (if I were sober I would calculate the difference in damage on long range with the highest tier bolt action. The new handgun, "Wild Boar" did kill me when I only had my FiveSeveN and SR, didn't kill me yet when I was on SMG so not sure how OP that one is. Other than that I'm surprised how many guns I can yet buy with this new system. Already got high level Recon guns, but somehow I can also buy high level Assault guns, eventhough my MK16 is the highest level gun I got on Assault. Not sure how this system works.

Speaking of strange systems, the new 'best of three' system for holdout does mean that after winning/losing 2 games in a row, the game quits instead of getting to a 3rd round. In theory this isn't all that bad, though bad for RP income, it does mean that these games no longer count towards 'completed games' which you need for a certain solo-mission.

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PostSubject: Re: Spoils of WAR, matchmaking and weapon Tiers in stead of levels.   Mon Sep 02, 2013 4:37 pm

Well-

the "wild boar" - which, by the way, seems to be a weapon fanboi's fantasy, unlike *every* other gun in the game - anyway, this pistol two-shots an assault in lvl1 armor (which I played for the fun of it) and three-shots lvl27 assault armor. Considering that the PX4 needs four shots to kill anything except maybe an unarmored recon, this is a bit frustrating to say the least.

I would guess you (Mortem) can buy high-level assault guns because you reached lvl30 before the new system was introduced.
Or it might be that you actually have to own only one (any one) tier x weapon to unlock tier (x+1) for all classes - that would be suprisingly fair by Ubi. (need to check whether I can buy an SVD - my recon is, like, lvl17)

The "other" new GRFS guns, I have yet to have a run-in with. Neither the Mk17, nor the SPAS, nor that Nemesis .50 cal, nor that weird-looking SMG, nor the MG4 GRFS (srsly Ubi? .50cal SR, SPAS, funky SMG, and all the specialist gets is a pimped version of the MG4 (which is a tier 5 weapon in the new system)?).
It would in fact be interesting to "meet" these weapons in-game, or at a later point of time, try them in the shooting range, to find out whether they are as OP as the statistics "promise".
What I know is that the SPAS is the third-most hated weapon in Battlefield 3, only succeded by the full-auto shotgun USAS and the "noobtube" M320 grenade launcher. (And I sincerely hope UBI never, never introduces a grenade launcher -type of weapon. Specialist tier 8, eh?)

My thoughts so far.


Oh, one other thing -
nothing screams "pay to win" like the SR25 WAR gold-plated semi-auto sniper rifle, being used  by someone with 25 achievement points.
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PostSubject: Re: Spoils of WAR, matchmaking and weapon Tiers in stead of levels.   Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:30 pm

atleast its not pay to hit.
even tough the sr25 is good (i love it) so does buying the gold one not mean that you are good at it.


........
you know what, pay to win....
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PostSubject: Re: Spoils of WAR, matchmaking and weapon Tiers in stead of levels.   Wed Sep 04, 2013 3:41 pm

Reading that things aren't as p2w as I was expecting (if what Mortem says about being able to get guns easily is true), I might start playing properly again. Then again, school starts tomorrow... :/

The biggest downside to the Wild Boar is that it only has six rounds (in fact I think it's simply a higher damage Redhawk) and so it's less spammable and slower firing than the 14-round PX4.

As for the tier system, I think Ubi confirmed that if you had reached, say, tier 5 (before tiers came in), then you would have access to tier 6. So Nast, if you had an M-200 then you could get an SVD (which would be hugely infuriating to everyone Wink), and if you have an MP9 (which you do, don't you?) then you can get a P90. Not sure what the point of levelling is now, but oh well.

Can't say about the GRFS guns, about to go test them now, but I have seen a montage of someone using the Nemesis. Shit's crazy. 3 Second bolting. 135 chest shots from the C spawn on Korolyov to the bridge between the two towers. Recons will live in fear of this and Specialists will have to stack up on inserts to survive a single shot and GOOD GREIF IT'S ALL PART OF UBI'S MASTER PLAN OF MAKING ALL OF THE MONEY.

We already have grenade launchers. They're called impacts.

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PostSubject: Re: Spoils of WAR, matchmaking and weapon Tiers in stead of levels.   Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:14 pm

Yeah leveling - i have wondered about that as well, not much sense left in it as of now, except for bragging...
(btw no I don't have an MP9, only an MP7)

After having a quick testing of the GRFS guns in the firing range, I can say that, luckily, the automatic ones (Mk17 and Mk48 - not MG4, my bad) suffer from rather low control. Getting more than 2 rounds on the target is very tricky in full auto. On the downside, they are OP enough that if you get three on the target, it's a kill. As for that SMG, whatever the name is, well it has a 100 round magazine. Need I say more?
SPAS. One interesting thing, it has the same DPS as the KPS12C, only the KPS has half the damage and double the fire rate. But still - aim for the elbow with that Kobra sight, it is still a one-shot-kill. Not funny.
By the way one-shots, the Nemesis kills an assault at close range with a (non-crit) body shot. I have learned that in game. This is the gun that COD 360 no-scopers have been waiting for. Neutral

Afaik they are all priced at 2.6k GC - about 100 less than what you get for 15€, so one can get them for that, or in the bundle for 4.2k GC (better deal but still 30€).

Personally, because of my playing habits (my sniping sucks and my smg is tier 4-ish) I won't go buy these, instead, wait for the non-GRFS Mk17 or Mk 48, and then have a look-see.

Questions that remain open:

-Will the new attachments (especially that HHS II "magnified reflex sight", but also the Kobra thing) be availiable for all weapons at some point of time?
(-Is there any advantage in the flashy new laser designator, compared to the "old" one?)

Will Ubi When will Ubi change the RP income so that one actually has a chance of paying any of that with in-game currency? I am not saying I have played alot recently, but my RP income has been near nil...
If they don't make this game (which they call free-to-play, keep that in mind) actually playable for zero-€ players, and have the monetization thingy as a "shortcut" (to quote TB, "if you value your time more than your money, and have disposable real-money income...") - well, if Ubi doesn't do that, then people will stop, or worse, not even start playing GRO. Which - i guess - is not what they want.
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PostSubject: Re: Spoils of WAR, matchmaking and weapon Tiers in stead of levels.   Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:20 pm

I quite like the idea of that SMG. It has an alternative magazine option (I say alternative, in-game it's 'extended', which explains why it has 40 rounds compared to the regular 100), which hugely cuts down reload times and halves the ready time, and with the recent change to let you keep old attachments, you could potentially (my brain has gone to mush- is that you spell that? Very Happy) have one loadout for CQC and one loadout for suppression. Well, that is if you could change your attachments on the fly, which you can't. You could always buy two, and make Ubisoft pee themselves with greedy joy...

The SPAS has two fire modes. Pump and Semi. The Pump is more accurate but slower firing, but the increased accuracy is so negligible that there's no reason to not choose Semi.

The Nemesis also comes with a 12x scope and an extended mag by default. Again, I don't get how it's extended given that we don't have a standard, but oh well...

I reckon the new attachments will probably be available to at least Tier VIII weapons when they finally arrive, but whether or not they'll be available for old weapons is a mystery. Personally, I quite like the Kobra, simply because of the sight picture, but the 3.25x is only available on weapons with huge recoil. Oh, and there is no peripheral vision. At all.

I have to agree with you've said about this slowly becoming P2W. It's the main reason I've not been playing, and since PS2 continues to make it easy to get the stuff you want with in-game cash and continues to make good deals with real money (lots of boosts for members, as well as a decent amount of premium money each month, vs €30 weapon bundles with two guns and some consumables, and monthly challenges that could net you an extended magazine... (and today I found out that PS2 has a retail version, costs £8 and has £40 value), I've been finding it harder to stop playing Planetside and start playing GRO again... :C

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PostSubject: Re: Spoils of WAR, matchmaking and weapon Tiers in stead of levels.   Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:49 pm

Concerning the extended mag on Nemesis and SMG, I guess that is because what we currently talk about are the GRFS versions of the weapons. The standart versions and their deviations, i.e. SV, SP, SD, C, original, whatever, will - d'oh, of course - not have extended or even drum mags by default - you gon' have to buy 'em...

Attachments, I really like that 3.25x scope, and I think the 3.25x "magnified reflex" has a rather large "inner diameter". To explain this, the reason why I prefer the SUSAT over the 3.5x assault scope is the "inner diameter" of the scope - see illustration.


Red: Susat scope, inner and outer diameter.
Green: 3.5x scope, same thing.

Images taken from http://groforums.ubi.com/showthread.php?522-AgentRev-Optical-sights-preview-%28see-before-you-buy%29-Forums
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PostSubject: Re: Spoils of WAR, matchmaking and weapon Tiers in stead of levels.   Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:15 pm

i must say that personaly i like the one to the left. thats what i am using on my lmg.

what i like with planetside is that there is no matchmaking that can screw you over as in gro. that must be the most annoying thing. (ofcourse ps2 has other problems)
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PostSubject: Re: Spoils of WAR, matchmaking and weapon Tiers in stead of levels.   Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:53 pm

Sometimes that's a gift with Planetside. Other times it's a curse, and you end up with two level 100 AA tanks camping outside your warpgate.

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